The League

This was kinda brought up on the old MFL forum but I don't think it was resolved.

The question is this: When should the Average salary for Top 5/10/15 be captured for use in tagging for the following year?

3 options I see:
1) Beginning of the season after FA period is over
2) Middle of the season, perhaps the trade deadline
3) End of the season

We need to choose something and get it in the constitution so there is no question.

I personally would think either #1 or #2. Probably #1.

I don't like #3 because the big downside is that high priced players may have been dropped by the time the season ends (ala Mike Vick in 07). This can then bring the average down lower then it should be.

#2 has less risk of this then #3 and can take into account any high bids for free agents in season. However I don't think there would be any bids that would actually make it into the Top 5/10/15 average so that probably doesn't matter much and a guy like Vick could still be dropped.

Which leaves us to #1 which has no risk of dropped high priced players (other then maybe a pre-season injury) and accurately reflects salaries at the start of the season before anything happens.

What do you all think and am I missing something here that is simpler?

Option #1 seems a little to soon IMO. How was it done this year?

bonscott wrote:This was kinda brought up on the old MFL forum but I don't think it was resolved.

The question is this: When should the Average salary for Top 5/10/15 be captured for use in tagging for the following year?

3 options I see:
1) Beginning of the season after FA period is over
2) Middle of the season, perhaps the trade deadline
3) End of the season

We need to choose something and get it in the constitution so there is no question.

I personally would think either #1 or #2. Probably #1.

I don't like #3 because the big downside is that high priced players may have been dropped by the time the season ends (ala Mike Vick in 07). This can then bring the average down lower then it should be.

#2 has less risk of this then #3 and can take into account any high bids for free agents in season. However I don't think there would be any bids that would actually make it into the Top 5/10/15 average so that probably doesn't matter much and a guy like Vick could still be dropped.

Which leaves us to #1 which has no risk of dropped high priced players (other then maybe a pre-season injury) and accurately reflects salaries at the start of the season before anything happens.

What do you all think and am I missing something here that is simpler?

If we go with #1 and if I understand it correctly, would that mean we would need to wait until after all free agents are signed at the beginning of the new year to begin the tagging period?

Instead of getting caught up with names per say, isnt there a way to just simply take the highest salaries of each position (QB, RB, WR ect)from the start of the season until the end of that season regardless of who it was or if they were dropped and use that as the basis? That would mean at the end of the year we calculate the information of course. But the information would be from the start to the end and everythng in between, just take the highest salaries at the positions and associate it to the given position.

Achon44 wrote:Option #1 seems a little to soon IMO. How was it done this year?

It was done at the end of week 16. I noticed the numbers of some positions were different from the snapshot I took at the beginning of the season. And the reason was because guys were dropped in the meantime. The example of Vick was given because it was the biggest effect. Basically the average top 10 and 15 QBs were lower in the list generated at the end of the season vs. what was generated at the beginning of the season.

LV Elite wrote:If we go with #1 and if I understand it correctly, would that mean we would need to wait until after all free agents are signed at the beginning of the new year to begin the tagging period?

No, maybe what I wrote was confusing. I'm basically talking about what the average salaries will be for tagging players in 2009. This list will be generated at some point in the upcoming 2008 season. This year for 2008 it was taken after week 16. What this meant was that high salary guys dropped during the season or especially at the end of the season as people prepare for next season, they won't count in the averages because once dropped their salaries go to the minimum which is 425K.

What I meant by taking it after FA signings was that offseason FA signings end 1 day before the first NFL game of the season. So that would be the time to take the snapshot at the beginning of the season.

bonscott wrote:

LV Elite wrote:If we go with #1 and if I understand it correctly, would that mean we would need to wait until after all free agents are signed at the beginning of the new year to begin the tagging period?

No, maybe what I wrote was confusing. I'm basically talking about what the average salaries will be for tagging players in 2009. This list will be generated at some point in the upcoming 2008 season. This year for 2008 it was taken after week 16. What this meant was that high salary guys dropped during the season or especially at the end of the season as people prepare for next season, they won't count in the averages because once dropped their salaries go to the minimum which is 425K.

What I meant by taking it after FA signings was that offseason FA signings end 1 day before the first NFL game of the season. So that would be the time to take the snapshot at the beginning of the season.

I see what your saying and I think I agree with that, its not right if a team overpaid per say for a player, then dropped them midseason due to injury, jail or whatever to not count towards the average salary for that position. I was under the assumption those salaries were being counted even if they were dropped. The only thing with doing it at the beginning would be mid season free agent pick ups, although like you said, their salaries may not be that high to consider in the first place. The question I have, is there a way at the end of a given season like 2007, to run some type of report on all the players at each position that were signed to contracts even if they are not rostered at that time? Reason for that is, we can figure what the averages are there at the end regardless of a high priced player was dropped and is not rostered, the info for his contract would be there. Make sense?

LV Elite wrote:

bonscott wrote:

LV Elite wrote:If we go with #1 and if I understand it correctly, would that mean we would need to wait until after all free agents are signed at the beginning of the new year to begin the tagging period?

No, maybe what I wrote was confusing. I'm basically talking about what the average salaries will be for tagging players in 2009. This list will be generated at some point in the upcoming 2008 season. This year for 2008 it was taken after week 16. What this meant was that high salary guys dropped during the season or especially at the end of the season as people prepare for next season, they won't count in the averages because once dropped their salaries go to the minimum which is 425K.

What I meant by taking it after FA signings was that offseason FA signings end 1 day before the first NFL game of the season. So that would be the time to take the snapshot at the beginning of the season.

I see what your saying and I think I agree with that, its not right if a team overpaid per say for a player, then dropped them midseason due to injury, jail or whatever to not count towards the average salary for that position. I was under the assumption those salaries were being counted even if they were dropped. The only thing with doing it at the beginning would be mid season free agent pick ups, although like you said, their salaries may not be that high to consider in the first place. The question I have, is there a way at the end of a given season like 2007, to run some type of report on all the players at each position that were signed to contracts even if they are not rostered at that time? Reason for that is, we can figure what the averages are there at the end regardless of a high priced player was dropped and is not rostered, the info for his contract would be there. Make sense?

As teams become more familiar with this system and start to get their caps in oder you will see high price bids on players during the season. Most teams just didn't have the cap room to do it this year. Also, IMO the Vick scenerio is not a bad thing. The team dropping Vick will receive cap relief in 2008, so why shouldn't the market as a whole share in that same releif?

LV Elite wrote: The question I have, is there a way at the end of a given season like 2007, to run some type of report on all the players at each position that were signed to contracts even if they are not rostered at that time? Reason for that is, we can figure what the averages are there at the end regardless of a high priced player was dropped and is not rostered, the info for his contract would be there. Make sense?

Yep. And your idea is a good one. Unfortunately the software doesn't work that way. Any player not rostered has a "minimum" salary of 425K. Even if they were rostered earlier at a higher salary.

Achon44 wrote: Also, IMO the Vick scenerio is not a bad thing. The team dropping Vick will receive cap relief in 2008, so why shouldn't the market as a whole share in that same releif?

I couldn't agree more.

Either way then we need to get it documented. 8)

I'd just be careful of teams that are done in week 15 that start dropping all kinds of players that it may toss the average out of whack when the average is taken at the end of week 16.

bonscott wrote:Either way then we need to get it documented. 8)

I'd just be careful of teams that are done in week 15 that start dropping all kinds of players that it may toss the average out of whack when the average is taken at the end of week 16.

True, but it seems to me that teams that do that would only be hurting themselves by lowering tag prices and allowing other teams to keep their players.

bonscott wrote:Either way then we need to get it documented. 8)

I couldn't agree more.

bonscott wrote: I'd just be careful of teams that are done in week 15 that start dropping all kinds of players that it may toss the average out of whack when the average is taken at the end of week 16.

That is against the rules anyway. You can't make any wholesale drops until after week 16. If I don't have that in the constitution already I will add that. I know we talked about it before.

I did some searching and this is what the NFL does just for reference:

An "exclusive" franchise player -- not free to sign with another club -- is offered a minimum of the average of the top five salaries at the player's position as of April 16, or 120 percent of the player's previous year's salary, whichever is greater.

Also it appreas that NFL players become FA on March 2, 2007 .

So if I'm understanding it correctly it doesn't even take into account players who's contracts have expired and are free agents. If we go with something similar to that the franchise salaries would be even lower.

braven112 wrote:That is against the rules anyway. You can't make any wholesale drops until after week 16. If I don't have that in the constitution already I will add that. I know we talked about it before.

This could be a hard one to regulate. I could have dropped Rudi in week 15 or 16 for example to pick up a prospect knowing that I wasn't planning on keeping Rudi. This would have messed up the average RB rankings for sure.

braven112 wrote: I did some searching and this is what the NFL does just for reference:

An "exclusive" franchise player -- not free to sign with another club -- is offered a minimum of the average of the top five salaries at the player's position as of April 16, or 120 percent of the player's previous year's salary, whichever is greater.

Also it appreas that NFL players become FA on March 2, 2007 .

So if I'm understanding it correctly it doesn't even take into account players who's contracts have expired and are free agents. If we go with something similar to that the franchise salaries would be even lower.

Yea, we can't really do that.

If dropping of players lowering the average salary is an ok thing then no need to make it complicated. Just take the snapshot of salaries say just before week 16 games start and be done with it.

If we want to be "safe" then perhaps take a snapshot before week 1 and another in week 16 and average them to come up with the final list.

bonscott wrote:

braven112 wrote:That is against the rules anyway. You can make any wholesale drops until after week 16. If I don't have that in the constitution already I will add that. I know we talked about it before.

This could be a hard one to regulate. I could have dropped Rudi in week 15 or 16 for example to pick up a prospect knowing that I wasn't planning on keeping Rudi. This would have messed up the average RB rankings for sure.

I still don't see why that would be so bad seeing it affects the league as a whole. I will be shocked if we ever see tag prices as high as they were this year regardless of when we take the snapshot, especially with RBs. I also doubt we will ever see as much player dumping at the end of the year as well. Our initial auction process inflated many salaries and teams are now grasping a better understanding of how things work and will carry that forward.

bonscott wrote: Any player not rostered has a "minimum" salary of 425K. Even if they were rostered earlier at a higher salary.

Not really. Not to be a stickler but Any player rostered has a "minimum" salary of 425K. The way I have it set up now players dropped have no salary. In order for them to be on a roster they have to have a salary of 425k but MFL doesn't really know that until you go to sign them if that makes sense.

All year though I had it so when a player was dropped his original salary stayed with him until a new team picked him up. I changed that so when a player is dropped the salary info goes away.

We can actually still find out what the original salary if we actually need to. With MFL we can check the salary adjustments screen and see what the cap hit was. ( the salary would be 2x the salary adjustment.)

I know that this was not one of bonscott's original options, but I would recommend that we take a snapshot of the salaries at the end of our league's regular season - meaning upon conclusion of the Week 13 games (prior to our league's playoffs) and use that salary information to calculate the tagged salaries for next season.

yugimoto wrote:I know that this was not one of bonscott's original options, but I would recommend that we take a snapshot of the salaries at the end of our league's regular season - meaning upon conclusion of the Week 13 games (prior to our league's playoffs) and use that salary information to calculate the tagged salaries for next season.

Thats funny, I was actually thinking the same thing on my way home from work.

Here is my ....I agree we should take a snap shot at the end of the regular season like it was stated in the previous post at week 13. The Vick situation is a little different since he is sitting in jail rather than the IR. If Vick was just hurt and coming back in 2008, I am sure he would have not been released. The way I look at it.....can a team dump salary that could reduce the tag salary....yes. Can a team extremely over pay for a player during the blind bid/FA auction period that could drive the tag salaries up...yes. In the end I think everything is a wash. Whatever we decide on needs to get added to the league rules.

yugimoto wrote:I know that this was not one of bonscott's original options, but I would recommend that we take a snapshot of the salaries at the end of our league's regular season - meaning upon conclusion of the Week 13 games (prior to our league's playoffs) and use that salary information to calculate the tagged salaries for next season.

yugimoto wrote:I know that this was not one of bonscott's original options, but I would recommend that we take a snapshot of the salaries at the end of our league's regular season - meaning upon conclusion of the Week 13 games (prior to our league's playoffs) and use that salary information to calculate the tagged salaries for next season.

That's a good idea. Could still have a Vick situation but how many time do these guys go to jail in the middle of the season? Maybe I shouldn't ask that question.

In the end it doesn't matter to me so long as we have something. End of the regular season is a good spot in that most highly prized free agents in season have probably already been picked up, guys going to jail have been dropped and guys that people don't want to keep should still be on rosters because everyone has at least 2 more games to go.

That's why I like to talk it out.