Pigskin - Vitside Trade

[bonesman]

* Pacific Pigskins gave up Redman, Isaac PIT RB;Obomanu, Ben SEA WR; Year 2012 Round 3 Draft Pick from Midwestside Connection
* Vitside Mafia gave up Bowe, Dwayne KCC WR


That looks like a homie ass trade to me... You and Brandon are RL friends, yea?

[yugimoto]

Per the constitution:

•Any trade involving the Commissioner's team will be sent to an independent owner for approval.

Since in the post above DeCleaters is implying collusion in the trade it would be good to hear from the independant owner that approved the trade acknowledging they approved it and if inclined add their thoughts as to why.

At a minimum as long as the process was followed I think the trade stands.

Having said that a trade that has essentially trades Bowe for a 3rd round draft pick seems a bit lopsided in my opinion , but if both parties are satisfied and the trade process, when the commish is involved, was followed then who am I to judge what one person values over another

just my

[LV Elite]

Yea... I am interested in this as well. That trade is VERY obviously lopsided.... seriously?

Waiting to hear on this.....

[braven112]

I sent this trade to Midwestsideconnection, in the past I've either sent them to bonscott or thundercats but I'm friends with thundercats and Midwest, so take that for what you will.

I'll just tell you my view of the trade. Bowe has been on the block all season and I told Vit that I wasn't willing to give up much for him since he wasn't really much of an upgrade, if at all, over Roddy White. If you can get a better deal than this, then do it but at least this will be something for your expiring contract. I know he tried to work out trades with other teams.

I wouldn't jeopardize the integrity of league for any reason. I've been a commish long enough to no you always leave yourself open to criticism if you make a "good" deal, but I can't apologize for trying to make my team better.

If bonscott is ok with it I'd like to add his email to the approve trade emails that MFL sends out so he can log in and literally click the approve button on my trades since I don't know him personally and hopefully eliminate any questions in the future, since I have 3 friends in the league now, I'd like to be able to focus on making my team better and avoid the perception of any conflict of interest.

[bonesman]

I sent this trade to Midwestsideconnection

How? Email? Can I have that forwarded to me?

I hope you don't take offense to me having suspicions here, but we're looking at a heavily lopsided trade between the commish and his RL friend he just brought into the league this year... that was okayd by his OTHER RL friend he just brought to the league this year.

[braven112]

He works with me so I asked him to approve it, he sent out an email to the league last night. There isn't anything else I can say.

[bonesman]

I wouldn't jeopardize the integrity of league for any reason.

But you did.

[bonscott]

FYI that I wouldn't have vetoed the trade if I had the opportunity. It's hard enough to "prove" collusion and even more so in a salary cap league where owners could be trading away salary or cap years as has been pointed out to me before when I had an issue with a trade in the past. After that a couple years ago I rarely even look closely at trades in this league anymore.

Guess i need to pay more attention though as I didn't know Bowe was on the verge of being traded. In the future my advice to Vista would be to post like Executioners did last week telling everyone he had a good offer on the table and wanted to see if anyone else would offer something better. Better chance at getting a better trade that way.

[bonscott]

I might suggest, if we don't already have this rule, a league override rule. I have this in my league, but for the trade deadline only.

Drunk Trade Rule: After the trading deadline, if the commish gets 5 official protests about a particular trade by Midnight Tuesday, then that trade will go up to a league vote. If 7 out of the 9 owners (minus the commissioner and teams involved) decide to veto the trade then it will be vetoed. This only applies to trades at the trade deadline party and is to help prevent totally lopsided trades made in a drunken madness.

Perhaps something similar could be in for this league. If say 6 owners protest the trade within a day or two then it goes up for a league vote to veto which would require say 10 of 13 owners to vote to veto. Just a thought.

Another idea, I'm honestly not a fan of doing league vote in general for each trade BUT it could work in this league since most of us don't know each other. Could make it tough to veto, say 10 of 16 owners must vote to veto or something which would be 10 of the 13 teams not involved.

[Vitside Mafia]

Ok let me put this issue to rest. First off, I placed Bowe on the block as soon i got into the league so everyone was put on notice that he was up for trade. I even shopped him around at the very beginning of the season. I tried working something out with Georgia and other teams but there has been either lack of interest or cap issue.

An opportunity came up while his value was high and it had the things I was looking for my team, additional draft pics and young guys with decent potential (specificly RBs). Also, I was going to drop Bowe since his contract ends at the end of the year and if I can get some additional value for him besides additional cap space, that's a bonus and I think anyone would do it.

It's pretty obvious to me that this team was in rebuild mode when I got it so I'm totally geared for the future from the beginning. Look at the trading block, the guys I've posted have been at risk of being traded at any time.

[bonesman]

Ok let me put this issue to rest.

You're a nice friend.

Also, I was going to drop Bowe since his contract ends at the end of the year and if I can get some additional value for him besides additional cap space, that's a bonus and I think anyone would do it.

A third round draft pick would be lucky to score as many points as Bowe will score in the next few games in their whole CAREER.

You weren't going to drop Bowe either... his contract was going to expire. HUGE difference. Unless you were actually planning on dropping your highest scoring player behind Colt Mccoy. Which I find hard to believe regardless of his salary. Not like there's any hot prospects that you need cap space for anyway.



You should've at least tossed him a 2nd Brandon... would've made your collusive trade look a little more legit.

[bonesman]

I wouldn't jeopardize the integrity of league for any reason.

But you did.

I would like you to respond to this Brandon.


How is executing a trade THAT lopsided with one of your PERSONAL friends, reviewed and okay'd by one of your PERSONAL friends (who are both in their first year with the league) not jeopardizing the integrity of the league? ... honestly.

[Achon44]

An opportunity came up while his value was high and it had the things I was looking for my team, additional draft pics and young guys with decent potential (specificly RBs).

I'm a little confused on how a 3rd round pick, an undrafted free agent RB who will be 28 next year, and a 7th round WR who will be 29 next year equate to "additional draft pics" and "young guys with decent potential."

I'll be honest when I read the email about the trade I said out loud "You gotta be ******* kidding me." In my over 20 years of FF I've never seen a trade this lopsided. I'm not going to point fingers and mention collusion, but I am amazed this went through.

[braven112]

I wouldn't jeopardize the integrity of league for any reason.

But you did.

I would like you to respond to this Brandon.


How is executing a trade THAT lopsided with one of your PERSONAL friends, reviewed and okay'd by one of your PERSONAL friends (who are both in their first year with the league) not jeopardizing the integrity of the league? ... honestly.

I play in leagues with personal friends, and I commish another league with personal friends that I've been running for 9 years. I've ran this league for I think 5 years with guys that have personal friends in the league. I approve trades all the time, Thundercats is a personal friend and he has approved trades of mine in the past, that's how I think it would be ok, I followed the constitution, and I know there was nothing done wrong. The trade reviews are about making sure the salary and contract years fit withing the cap unless there is collusion. We've never vetoed a trade in this league because IMO if two guys are colluding then they can't be in the league. Are you really accusing 3 people of colluding?? Then on top of that, the guy that I don't know personally that has also helped approved trades of mine in the past said he wouldn't have vetoed the trade.

[bonscott]

I personally wouldn't think of veto'ing 99.9% of any trades. In my own league I commish I have only vetoed 1 trade in 13 years and that was Steve McNair in his prime for a kick returner.

This trade looks bad on the surface. BUT a couple years ago I really protested what I thought was a bad trade and I got "schooled" that players/picks aren't the only thing being traded but also salary cap and contract years. After that I don't even really look that close at the trades anymore to be honest. While I agree that Vista got a 3rd rounder (most likely a scrub) and 2 current scrubs he also dumped a bunch of salary which now frees up some space to make another trade to acquire someone with a bigger salary. Or he thinks he can get something for Redmen to the Mendy owner at the deadline. I don't know. Just spitballing here as devil's advocate.

Now would I have personally done this trade if I was Vista? Probably not, I would want more, unless it was at the deadline and I could get nothing better. The post on the message board putting Bowe and others up for trade was back in August before the season started (thus I personally didn't even pay attention to it thinking it wasn't current) so I also would have bumped up that post as well as put the league on notice that Bowe is on the verge to try to drum up better offers from teams that weren't really thinking about it but now have the feeling of "holy crap I better get in on this before someone else gets a deal". That's the way to get something better in my mind. But that's just me and I've been wrong many times before.

So that's a long way to say that if I was presented with this trade to approve I would have.

[JMac]

As a long time Commissioner of my own league, I'd like to say that I think Brandon has done a great job running this league. I appreciate all the work that he does as Commissioner as I know from experience that being a league Commissioner is often a thankless job. Having been in this league for years, I was a bit surprised that the "collusion" word was brought up. I certainly agree the trade was absolutely HORRIBLE but I have never seen anything but integrity from Brandon for YEARS (and no I don't know Brandon at all). Collusion didn't even enter my mind when I saw the trade. My first thought was, "Wow, Vitside Mafia makes trades like the way I draft in this league." If these kind of trades happened even occasionally, then collusion would be my conclusion. But this just strikes me as a single instance of one bad trade.

JMac

[Vitside Mafia]

Ok, if you all want the new guy to expain himself and give up strategy for an already handicapped team then I guess that’s what I have to do.

I’m not 100% clear on the rule but it’s my understanding that:
If I use the franchise tag on a WR I would have to pay $9,553907, Bowe’s Not worth it!
If I used the transition tag I would have to pay him $8,099,117 Bowe’s not worth it!
If I used the restricted tag I would have to pay $6,5569,078 – Bowe is still not worth it! And Even at the restricted tag he would become the 7th highest paid WR and Bowe’s not that elite!
Just take a look:

http://football13.myfantasyleague.com/2 ... ints&TEAM=*

Personally, I don't think he is worth that much, especially as a guy to build my team around. The best I could hope for if I waited till then to trade him would be for someone to match it and give me their 2nd round pick. At that point who would want do that when you guys can just wait for free agency and get a couple, top 30 guys and pay around 1-3 million.
Take a look at this list and tell me you have to spend 6.5 million for a guy that scores in the range of Bowe, yeah Bowe is good but he's one of the worst deals on this list compared to how much he scores. I'm not one guy away from being truly competitive I need a couple guys in this range, I've been trying to trade him all year but his salary has made it too hard for me to move him, without taking on another overpriced contract in return and I didn't want to do that.

I got what is probably going to be a projected high 3rd rounder, a couple inexpensive guys that, in my personal opinion, have a good chance at out performing their contracts and with basically no downside, for a guy that I would have to overpay to tag It’s not a great deal but it was the best deal I was offered, better than the deal I could have got if I waited, and used the restricted tag and risk holding up my cap with him. I had another offer out there but I didn't hear back so I went with this one.

I will not let guys like Bowe to drag my team. year after year in mediocrity. If you look at the trading block, you know he’s not the only guy I’m going to shed this year. That’s just more years of not making me competitive and if anyone here who know’s me , know’s that I’m not a conventional fantasy football player and I always play to win, not to just make it play-offs TO WIN! And if anyone thinks that I can win Championships with this team, then you have no right playing in this type of league! So if you all think you‘re going to get bargin-basement prices for all the guys you’re not franchising next year, well you’re in for a rude awaking. I personally feel it sucks that I have to tell you all what my long term strategy is especially coming in to the league with such obvious handicaps but I guess we all different process on how we can all improve our teams.

Sorry for the long explaintion,
-Peace

[bonscott]

Hey Vit, no troubles.

I think the issue for many (I think) is the two guys you got aren't that good and don't have a whole lot of upside for the future which isn't what you want in a league like this. I made a similar move to the Pigskins earlier this year to get Santonio Holmes to strengthen my depth for the playoff run (my first in 5 years, I always stink). He was expensive and just 1 year so no keeper. I gave up a really cheap prospect that is actually startable, a kicker the guy needed this year and a 3rd rounder. So I think many guys are seeing this as Bowe for a 3rd rounder only. However maybe you're high on the two players you got. We obviously all have differing opinions. If that's all you can get, great. But some think you could have gotten more is all.

I don't think there is any collusion or anything. Some may see it differently.

Good luck on the rebuilding. It took me forever and a lot of luck the past couple years. My rookie draft picks never panned out until recently.

[bonesman]

Firstly, I'd like to apologize for not raising the issue with more tact and civility. My opinion on the matter remains unchanged and I remain suspicious (maybe it's subconscious, 2 out of 3 teams involved in this matter are named after criminal cartels) , however my postings were douchy and passive-aggressive... and that's not cool, so sorry for that.

Vit,
I think you perception of Bowe's value to your team is wrong... unless you purposely want to be worse this year and get a higher pick (which is actually a disadvantage in this league ironically) or you end up making a deal to improve using some of that new found capspace.


Brandon has been a great commish and I recently vouched for his trustworthiness on the FBG forums. And perhaps I'm paranoid (quite likely actually), but I believe that power corrupts and I think I might've noticed a few instances of Brandon pressing his edges this year. The first was the divisional realignment. There were valid reasons for that, I suppose, but look who benefited. Next was a mid-week removal of commissioner's lock. Again, just me being paranoid probably, but it raised an eyebrow for me as I noticed right when I got done putting in some bids for the week. I think B got Painter for the min or so that week... good thing he didn't overpay! And then this trade w/the mafia homie.

Sorry, it's awkward to share that and I'm really not making accusations or pointing fingers, just sharing my perspective... which I freely admit is most likely just paranoia.

[bonesman]

We've never vetoed a trade in this league because IMO if two guys are colluding then they can't be in the league.

That is completely illogical.

Are you really accusing 3 people of colluding?? Then on top of that, the guy that I don't know personally that has also helped approved trades of mine in the past said he wouldn't have vetoed the trade.

Like I said in my previous post... perhaps my suspicions are subconsciously fueled. I don't trust criminals. Mafia and "The Gangsta, the killa and the dope deala" could elicit a unconscious archetype of distrust.


Amish said he would only consider vetoing 0.1% of trades... so he'd actually pull the plug on 0.049%? SIlver Bullets said it's the worst trade he's seen in 20 years. Noone else cares I guess.

At this point the trade helps me as you'd probably have started Murray in place of Bowe and I wouldn't have the outside chance at a W that I have tonight.

But what's important is the integrity of the league, as you said. If there was no collusion, fine. I STILL think you fleeced your boy no vaseline style though.

[Achon44]

I will not let guys like Bowe to drag my team. year after year in mediocrity.

Vit, After reading your last post I just wanted to make sure you understand that you are not forced to tag players after the season is over. You can just let them go via free agency. Yes, you would end up getting nothing back in return, but there is also the Toilet Bowl to think about where you could net the 1.18 or even the 2.17 or 2.18 instead of a 3rd rounder who at best could possibly fill in on a bye week.

[braven112]

Firstly, I'd like to apologize for not raising the issue with more tact and civility. My opinion on the matter remains unchanged and I remain suspicious (maybe it's subconscious, 2 out of 3 teams involved in this matter are named after criminal cartels) , however my postings were douchy and passive-aggressive... and that's not cool, so sorry for that.

Vit,
I think you perception of Bowe's value to your team is wrong... unless you purposely want to be worse this year and get a higher pick (which is actually a disadvantage in this league ironically) or you end up making a deal to improve using some of that new found capspace.


Brandon has been a great commish and I recently vouched for his trustworthiness on the FBG forums. And perhaps I'm paranoid (quite likely actually), but I believe that power corrupts and I think I might've noticed a few instances of Brandon pressing his edges this year. The first was the divisional realignment. There were valid reasons for that, I suppose, but look who benefited. Next was a mid-week removal of commissioner's lock. Again, just me being paranoid probably, but it raised an eyebrow for me as I noticed right when I got done putting in some bids for the week. I think B got Painter for the min or so that week... good thing he didn't overpay! And then this trade w/the mafia homie.

Sorry, it's awkward to share that and I'm really not making accusations or pointing fingers, just sharing my perspective... which I freely admit is most likely just paranoia.

I always appreciate your perspective on this issue and on other league issues and thanks for the props on the FBG board. I agree with you that power corrupts and since this is an internet league things could happen, I'm sure you've read some of the stories over the last few years on FBG. Some pretty crappy things do happen. You should have your radar up. Its to bad we didn't get to meet each other in person when you came to seattle last year like we hoped. I promise that wasn't part of any conspiracy. I really did go to Hawaii

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos- ... 3824_n.jpg

If you are ever in seattle again or anyone else in the league for that matter are ever in town, you, me, Vit, Nate (midwest) and Thundercats but he lives 4 hours away will go have some drinks together.

The lockout change IIRC was just so I could add the the logo to either midwest or vit's team I don't remember which. But the lockout was removed and put back into place on September 28th at 6:48pm. This is how the week's waivers went down.

http://football13.myfantasyleague.com/2 ... 1317347103

There was only one bid submitted before that time and you and I did ours the next day.

You're a great owner and its by far the best group of owners that I play with. My favorite thing about this league is that everyone has a different strategy and in my opinion there are so many variables to consider, cap room, draft picks, player ability, upside while they're under contract, in my opinion some guys even have negative value in comparison to their contract. At times it can be easy to make trades and with certain players its next to impossible because of their contract. Boys II Men for example, was one that I could never understand but he was always above competitive, so who knows?

My strategies have evolved over the years, I've been rebuilding since year one. The real eye opener to me was a few years back when Aaron Rodgers was 425-500k-ish and seeing that deal turn into the single most valuable contract in league history. That is how you win championships.

[bonesman]

I promise that wasn't part of any conspiracy. I really did go to Hawaii

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos- ... 3824_n.jpg

I've gotta admit, at the time I did wonder if that was just some elaborate excuse to flake on me. Glad you had a good time.

The real eye opener to me was a few years back when Aaron Rodgers was 425-500k-ish and seeing that deal turn into the single most valuable contract in league history. That is how you win championships.

That honor now belongs to Cameron, the Fig, Newton.

I'd love to put him on the block to see what other people would offer for him, but I don't want to waste anyones time, noone can afford him.

[bocious]

Looks like I missed out on some excitement while I was out of town. Sorry for emailing my basic reasoning to the league instead of posting it here; I was away from my computer and didn't realize how serious things were getting on this board.

My thoughts on the trade... Vit and I have gone back and forth about Isaac Redman for about a month now. Vit has a hard-on for the guy while I'm one of his biggest doubters. While this is a trade that I was actually excited to trash-talk Vit about, my philosophy has always been that trades in money/keeper leagues should only be rejected if there's obvious collusion, which I knew there wasn't. I think we all agree at this point that Brandon sending the trade to me for approval was a bad idea since we all know each other and now we can't prove we weren't all colluding, and I'm sure Brandon will be more careful about this going forward. Perhaps the same can be said for the way divisions are currently aligned based on which owners know each other, though I know Brandon does this in his other league and standings generally aren't as lopsided as in this league.

My thoughts going forward... I don't really agree with opening up the review of trade decisions to the whole league simply because of my previously-stated philosophy that trades in money/keeper leagues should only be rejected if there's proof of collusion. I've been burned in leagues that require X number of owners voting to reject a trade because people sneak in crap trades right before a holiday in hopes that nobody notices, and I greatly prefer knowing there's someone in charge who can single-handedly lower the boom if necessary. I would prefer simply modifying the constitution to say that Brandon has to send trades that involve himself (and trades where he knows people IRL) to someone in the league that he doesn't know IRL. I guess I'm fine with whatever the group decides, but that's my preference.

[joe.commish]

I totally missed the boat on this discussion, so I apologize for weighing in at this late a time with my thoughts... I don't monitor these boards as much in-season as I should. But after reading the above posts, I feel compelled to comment.

I did think the trade was brutal way back when but I have grown accustomed to just letting stuff like that go since my philosophy is that by entering a league such as this, I have to have a certain amount of trust in other owners. There are going to be wide-ranging strategies on running a team. Plus collusion is such a hard thing to prove. Perhaps just laziness on my part but I'm not a big debater and I find the drama surrounding it to be unappealing.

That said , I do trust Brandon.

But I actually bolted one of his leagues a while back (years ago) because I was accused of a collusion-tainted trade. I made a trade with a "homie" and although it was a keeper league, the trade was overturned by him. I don't recall the specifics of the trade and if I recall, there was probably some legitimate concerns over the value received on both sides (me getting the best of it). But there was NO collusion. I said it then, and I say it now. But it was still overturned. Given the drama of that, I felt to continue in that league with my integrity questioned was not worth the aggravation and my continued participation was irreparably damaged, so I left at the season's end.

I only bring it up now to point out that it indeed sucks to have your integrity questioned but Brandon has done it himself before. As he is the commissioner, I would implore him to take as many steps necessary to ensure he is transparent as possible, or refrain from making deals like that. I mean, we didn't even have 3rd round picks a few years ago. A 3rd round pick is like a lottery ticket in this league. It busts about every time.

I stay in the league because of the format, but I think these trades are very risky for league stability. Let's be honest, it's a $50 league. We are not NFL owners where we have so much invested we simply can't just walk away. Here, we can with no problem at all. I'm not leaving, I am just saying it doesn't take much. Of course, after this post, I may be asked to leave.