Change Power Rank tiebreaker and tiebreakers in general

[bonscott]

This is a spin off from the playoff seed discussion. Should probably have it's own thread.

Basically All Play was proposed as a possible better way to do a tiebreak as the Power Rank is flawed in ways (such as penalizing a team with a thin bench but more studs). Overall going All Play wouldn't make a huge difference as not that many teams are tied so it might move a team up or down a spot or two at most.

Also with that maybe we need to look at the overall tiebreakers as a whole to see if there is any simplification that can be done. Just looking at it, it's pretty complicated. Here is what is in the constitution:

Standings Tiebreakers
Note: These are the tiebreakers we'll use to determine, playoff seedings or any other situation not expicitly defined elsewhere. To view the draft order tiebreakers please view the Rookie draft section

Division 2 Team Tiebreakers
1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs).
2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division.
3. Power Rank.
4. Total points scored
5. All Play Record
6. Victory Points
7. Most Points Allowed
8. Coin Flip

Division 3+ Team Tiebreakers
(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format).
1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs).
2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division.
3. Power Rank.
4. Total points scored
5. All Play Record
6. Victory Points
7. Most Points Allowed
8. Coin Flip

Ties are always broke inside a division first.

Wild Card/Non-Division 2 Team Tiebreakers
1. Power Rank.
2. Total points scored
3. All Play Record
4. Victory Points
5. Most Points Allowed
6. Coin Flip

Wild Card/Non-Division 3+ Team Tiebreakers
(Note: If a club(s) is eliminated during any step, tiebreaker revert to step 1 of the two-club format).
1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs assuming all clubs have played the same number of games vs each other).
2. Power Rank.
3. Total points scored
4. All Play Record
5. Victory Points
6. Most Points Allowed
7. Coin Flip

Note: When the first Wild-Card team has been identified, the procedure is repeated to name the second Wild-Card, i.e., eliminate all but the highest-ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. In situations where three or more teams from the same division are involved in the procedure, the original seeding of the teams remains the same for subsequent applications of the tie breaker if the top-ranked team in that division qualifies for a Wild-Card berth.

This is the same format that we'll use to seed all of the postseason playoffs. Once one seed has been determined the procedure is repeated to seed the second team and so on...

[bonscott]

So first off is the Divisional Tiebreakers. There are two sections, one for 2 teams and one for 3+ teams. They are both the same so just for simplification sake I think you can just have one section for any divisional tiebreaker.

Wildcard Tiebreakers. This one I've always been confused on. Why for just 2 teams Power Rank is the first tiebreaker while with 3+ it's H2H (but only if the same number of games played) and then Power Rank. Seems like an overcomplication. If we're changing this to All Play then I'd say again combine the sections into one and the first tiebreak no matter what is All Play (or Power Rank if that is kept).

The note about starting over once a team moves on in 3+ can be consolidated to an overall section stating that in all cases we use the NFL Start Over rule with 3 or more teams and we also use the NFL Division Best rule for Wildcard spots where ties are broken in the division first and then just the top team in each division are compared for the tie break.

[braven112]

Sounds good to me!

[Wascawy Wabbits]

Sounds good to me!

[Achon44]

Totally agree

[Wascawy Wabbits]

This got brought up last offseason by Amish, but it never went any further then some of us agreeing with the idea so I thought I'd bump it and to see if this needs to go to a vote for upcoming seasons?

[braven112]

What are we wanting to go with? Here is how it would look if we just switch All Play and Power Rank and simplify the rest.

Division tiebreakers
1. Head-to-head
2. Division Record
3. All Play Record
4. Total points scored
5. Power Rank
6. Victory Points
7. Most Points Allowed
8. Coin Flip

Wild Card tiebreakers
1. All Play Record
2. Total points scored
3. Victory Points
4. Power Rank
5. Most Points Allowed
6. Coin Flip

Note: We use the NFL Start Over rule with 3 or more teams and we also use the NFL Division Best rule for Wildcard spots where ties are broken in the division first.

[Wascawy Wabbits]

I think it looks good. Can you show how this would have affected this season's playoff seeding / draft order, if any?

[Achon44]

What are we wanting to go with? Here is how it would look if we just switch All Play and Power Rank and simplify the rest.

Division tiebreakers
1. Head-to-head
2. Division Record
3. All Play Record
4. Total points scored
5. Power Rank
6. Victory Points
7. Most Points Allowed
8. Coin Flip

Wild Card tiebreakers
1. All Play Record
2. Total points scored
3. Victory Points
4. Power Rank
5. Most Points Allowed
6. Coin Flip

Note: We use the NFL Start Over rule with 3 or more teams and we also use the NFL Division Best rule for Wildcard spots where ties are broken in the division first.

How come head to head is used in division tiebreaker but not wild card tiebreaker?

[bonesman]

because we don't play ever single team every single year

[Achon44]

because we don't play ever single team every single year

That's obvious, just as it's obvious NFL teams don't all play each other every single year, but they still apply head-to-head first to determine wild card if it's applicable.

[Wascawy Wabbits]

because we don't play ever single team every single year

That's obvious, just as it's obvious NFL teams don't all play each other every single year, but they still apply head-to-head first to determine wild card if it's applicable.

It looks like the old tiebreaker didn't have H2H either (copied from the first post)

Wild Card/Non-Division 2 Team Tiebreakers
1. Power Rank.
2. Total points scored
3. All Play Record
4. Victory Points
5. Most Points Allowed
6. Coin Flip

And the updated one just swaps out Power Rank for All Play.

How would the 3+ team tiebreakers work?
Would it be the same as the Wildcard one? In the original rules, there were 2 diff 3+ team tiebreaker scenarios.

[braven112]

Regardless of the number of teams, tiebreakers would the same way. In a 3 or 4 team tie situation, once a team is eliminated via one of the tiebreaker steps it reverts back to the beginning of the list with the remaining teams.

With the division first rule, division ties would always be broken before proceeding to any remaining wild card ties.

[braven112]

How come head to head is used in division tiebreaker but not wild card tiebreaker?

I guess I set it up that way originally because I'm torn between the two systems. I like the simplicity of head to head. Especially for division games where you would have to beat the team twice. I think it adds to some of the division rivalry aspect of it. You know going into a division game it matters just a little more anyway plus there is also the division record tiebreaker on the line as well.

What I don't like about fantasy football head to head is that its not like the NFL. Its not like the other team had any bearing on how your team performed. So in our league, it ends up being how you did one random week during the year. Its hard to know what game is going to matter for a wild card tiebreaker until the end of the season. So it doesn't really add to the fun factor either. Since we are comparing teams that didn't play the same schedule its nice to use a metric that takes that into account. All-play is the best metric in my eyes to do that.

With the division tiebreaker first rule, the wild card tiebreaker is generally used to fill the final couple playoff spots and I'd rather award the team that had a better overall season.

That said, I wouldn't lose any sleep if most people wanted to use H2H either.

[Achon44]

How come head to head is used in division tiebreaker but not wild card tiebreaker?

I guess I set it up that way originally because I'm torn between the two systems. I like the simplicity of head to head. Especially for division games where you would have to beat the team twice. I think it adds to some of the division rivalry aspect of it. You know going into a division game it matters just a little more anyway plus there is also the division record tiebreaker on the line as well.

What I don't like about fantasy football head to head is that its not like the NFL. Its not like the other team had any bearing on how your team performed. So in our league, it ends up being how you did one random week during the year. Its hard to know what game is going to matter for a wild card tiebreaker until the end of the season. So it doesn't really add to the fun factor either. Since we are comparing teams that didn't play the same schedule its nice to use a metric that takes that into account. All-play is the best metric in my eyes to do that.

With the division tiebreaker first rule, the wild card tiebreaker is generally used to fill the final couple playoff spots and I'd rather award the team that had a better overall season.

That said, I wouldn't lose any sleep if most people wanted to use H2H either.

[Asrozas]

If the tiebreaker for draft order is power ranking which is whats stated in the rules. Why am I drafting 3rd instead of 2nd? Unless the better PR breaks the tie which doesnt make much sense if we're ranking the worst teams.

[Wascawy Wabbits]

If the tiebreaker for draft order is power ranking which is whats stated in the rules. Why am I drafting 3rd instead of 2nd? Unless the better PR breaks the tie which doesnt make much sense if we're ranking the worst teams.

Something w/ the Power Ranks must've changed recently cuz Vit finished 15th & Amish finished 14th based on the tie breakers (as also seen by the playoff seeds)

[Asrozas]

Ok so what does that mean? Is it the PR going into the playoff or at the end of the season?

[Achon44]

Ok so what does that mean? Is it the PR going into the playoff or at the end of the season?

I believe end of regular season.

[Asrozas]

[/quote]I believe end of regular season.
[/quote]

I guess that makes sense. Guys wouldn't want to play in the toilet bowl if it affected a high draft spot. Thanks for clarifying

[Cybergeek]

If the tiebreaker for draft order is power ranking which is whats stated in the rules. Why am I drafting 3rd instead of 2nd? Unless the better PR breaks the tie which doesnt make much sense if we're ranking the worst teams.

End of regular season power rank. Looks to me like you should have the number 2 pick in he draft.

powerrank.gif (92.6 KiB) Viewed 64853 times

[Wascawy Wabbits]

Ya it's a bit strange
I remember Vit having the lower Power Rank then Amish, which is why he placed and was seeded as 15th and Amish as 14th

I wonder if the Power Rank calculation has changed in recent weeks by MFL?

[Wascawy Wabbits]

Something is definitely off in comparison to how the ranking / draft order when the playoffs started

Original / Current draft order and playoff seeds w/ LB as the champ:
1.01 Gridiron Geeks
1.02 Vitside Mafia
1.03 Under Siege (Amish)
1.04 Wascaway Wabbits
1.05 (Midwestside)
1.06 Las Vegas Elite
1.07 Da Dangsters
1.08 Running down the dream
1.09 Maverick (Poker)
1.10 Fire Ready Aim
1.11 Dark Magicians of Chaos
1.12 Pacific Pigskins
1.13 The Mariachi Ninjas (The Exectutioners)
1.14 Devil Dogs
1.15 Bring the Pain
1.16 LBer-DeCleaters

Based on today's Power Ranks for week 13
1.01 Gridiron Geeks
1.02 Under Siege (Amish)
1.03 Vitside Mafia
1.04 Wascaway Wabbits
1.05 (Midwestside)
1.06 Las Vegas Elite
1.07 Running down the dream
1.08 Da Dangsters
1.09 Fire Ready Aim
1.10 Maverick (Poker)
1.11 Dark Magicians of Chaos
1.12 The Mariachi Ninjas (The Exectutioners)
1.13 Pacific Pigskins
1.14 Devil Dogs
1.15 Bring the Pain
1.16 LBer-DeCleaters

Pretty massive difference, that's half the draft order and FRA would've missed the playoffs. Something had to have changed at MFL w/ the calculation. There's no way that the playoff seeds could've been this far off

[bonesman]

fucking Filthy.... already stiring up the pot and causing controversy

LB as the champ:

As long as that doesn't change, yall can do what you want

[Asrozas]

Something is definitely off in comparison to how the ranking / draft order when the playoffs started

Original / Current draft order and playoff seeds w/ LB as the champ:
1.01 Gridiron Geeks
1.02 Vitside Mafia
1.03 Under Siege (Amish)
1.04 Wascaway Wabbits
1.05 (Midwestside)
1.06 Las Vegas Elite
1.07 Da Dangsters
1.08 Running down the dream
1.09 Maverick (Poker)
1.10 Fire Ready Aim
1.11 Dark Magicians of Chaos
1.12 Pacific Pigskins
1.13 The Mariachi Ninjas (The Exectutioners)
1.14 Devil Dogs
1.15 Bring the Pain
1.16 LBer-DeCleaters

Based on today's Power Ranks for week 13
1.01 Gridiron Geeks
1.02 Under Siege (Amish)
1.03 Vitside Mafia
1.04 Wascaway Wabbits
1.05 (Midwestside)
1.06 Las Vegas Elite
1.07 Running down the dream
1.08 Da Dangsters
1.09 Fire Ready Aim
1.10 Maverick (Poker)
1.11 Dark Magicians of Chaos
1.12 The Mariachi Ninjas (The Exectutioners)
1.13 Pacific Pigskins
1.14 Devil Dogs
1.15 Bring the Pain
1.16 LBer-DeCleaters

Pretty massive difference, that's half the draft order and FRA would've missed the playoffs. Something had to have changed at MFL w/ the calculation. There's no way that the playoff seeds could've been this far off

Maybe the seeding was different and RFA made the playoffs because of the head to head tiebreaker.

Thanks gridiron, yesterday was the first day i even looked at the power rankings. This thread made me think about. Didnt realize you could look week to week (still getting used to the site). If week 13 is the last wk of the reg season then something is definitely not right.